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Questioner

Underlords vs. Underlord+

Will Wight

The Sword Sage and Li Markuth are both roughly two stages above Underlord.

The three entities listed by Suriel as the top of the Cradle food chain are FIVE stages above Underlord, including one big leap (like the difference between Truegold and Underlord, it's only one stage, but it's a big one). The Dreadgods are a threat on THEIR level--and notice that Suriel said the 8-Man Empire, Sha Miara, and Northstrider could save Sacred Valley from them. She didn't say they could destroy the Dreadgods.

The BF Emperor is the one person in the Empire who is a level over Underlord.

The EE Emperor is about his level, although since they're using different magic systems, it's less about stages and more about what they can and can't do to counter one another.

Questioner

Li Markuth vs. Yerin's master and Eithan

Will Wight

Yerin's master and Eithan take it. In fact, Yerin's master might be able to do it without Eithan's help. Maybe. He and Li Markuth are on a similar level.

Nick S.

What stage was Li Markuth at when he invaded Sacred Valley?

Will Wight

So in terms of advancement, he would be like a Sage, that would be the area he'd be at. But he was gone for a long time, so he also learned some of the magic beyond cradle, so he would therefore be more powerful than any sage in the world, which is why a long time ago when people asked me what level he was at, and I said Archlord, but I also said similar level to the Blackflame emperor... well the reason I did is because in an early draft, the Blackflame emperor was originally intended to be an Archlord. So that's what I was thinking, is Archlord, Sage and then Li Markuth. But I new even then that he was using magic beyond cradle, because he'd gone beyond cradle so I knew that was true, its not a retcon, I was aware of that, but its just hard to talk about things that are coming up without spoilers.

There's another thing that a lot of Cradle kinda looks like i'm making up the power levels as i go,  and every once in a while i am...like i'll make up something, like there'll be something I didn't know the answer to, and I knew I'd need to figure out at some point but usually that's terminology or exact specific function, because i had the general idea of how all these ranks worked way back in Unsouled.  I came up with most of this pretty early but i didn't know exactly the terms i was gonna use cos i didn't know how it'd work and what i liked and how it fit. It looks like i'm coming up with it as i go mainly because im trying not to overload the reader, I'malready overloading the reader with way too many terms they don't understand. The more ranks i throw at people earlier the more confusing that gets, so i try to not deal with it until it actually comes up in the plot, so as a result it feels like it just came out of nowhere like "wait a second now everybody know what an Underlord is", they're also moving to more advanced areas of the world where they do know what an Underlord is. But its really more about trying to control the release of information to the reader for the sake of confusion, and for the sake of what makes sense in the world.

ParadoxRed

So did lindon power degrade back to just being a sage by the time he ascends?

Will Wight

No.

I know I didn’t go into great detail, but he didn’t need to shed a bunch of power until he was weak enough to ascend. He had to wait until hunger aura had faded more in Cradle AND his power was better integrated into his body.

A regular Sage wouldn’t have been able to handle a bunch of Dreadgod weapons at once, body Li Markuth, and then face down a guy called the Devourer of Dimensions.

Questioner

Okay guys these are the strongest characters1. Abidan Court2. Great Elders before they were sealed3.Strongest Cradle characters, including Li Markuth (not really Cradle universe), Ninecloud Court Princess, NorthStrider, Eithan, Yerins master4 .Sealed Great Elders and Emperor tie5. Urzia, Meia and other enhanced warroirs6. Ragnarus Incarnation7. Valinhall

Will Wight

That's just about right!

#3 is a broad variety of characters over several different power levels--the Ninecloud Court princess and Northstrider are a level beyond Li Markuth and the Sword Sage, who are both a level beyond Underlord. Some of those would defeat the Emperor and the sealed Great Elders easily, some would have a hard time, and some of them couldn't do it.

Also #5-7 are all very close. Valinhall can compete with the Champions, but they would be difficult fights. And while the Ragnarus Incarnation is the strongest Incarnation thus far, and thus a notch above Valinhall/the Champions, in the end (City of Light SPOILER ALERT, I guess) a Valinhall Traveler DID beat him.

But I'd still put him a notch above them in terms of pure power level.

Avinash

Been waiting for a new post to ask somethings

So finding out abidan archives was an info overload and I felt kinda like what dross must have felt on trying to integrate the Aurelius library. So I have a few questions/confusion.

1. Regarding Monarchs Will said that there are 8 active monarchs in cradle and at the end of underlord 7 live ones are mentioned Akura malice Seshethkunaaz, (dragon one) Sha miara Northstrider 8 man empire , counted as one, Emriss silent born ,The monarch remnant, Reigan shen , who apparently killed a monarch recently (possibly the Aurelius )

Now I am not counting the Aurelius monarch as he's been dead for a few years (~6) and Will said active monarchs.So the question is is there an unknown/hidden monarch?

Am I missing someone's name or is eithan the aurelius monarch and is hiding/repowered?

2. Of Markuth

I believed he was abidan level but he was confirmed to be sage at most, so I can get how he can travel off world maybe using portals or something like a Stargate but looking to fight the 4 dreadgods together or even one at a time when even monarchs cannot handle them alone seems unbelievable.Remember how malice was on the verge of retreating after 3 days and the blood Phoenix was still good to go but it retreated (maybe the influence of makael judge 001 ) wore off.

3. A few random musing

i. Who is judge 007 cause the reaper is 008.

ii. Is a ward key like a battery or an amplifier

iii.Do u have to die and be reborn(leaving ur remanent behind) to ascend/touch the way , this would explain the death of sage of endless sword.

Will Wight

This is a lot of questions, and these blog comments aren't a great medium for an in-depth discussion, but I'll do what I can.

1.) There are eight Monarch factions. Currently seven living/active Monarchs.

2.) He was an Archlord (or similar level) when he ascended from Cradle, but he has advanced beyond that in a different magic system after leaving. When he came back, he believed himself to be more powerful than anyone in the Iteration. Maybe he was, who knows? Maybe he was just prideful and Northstrider would have beaten the crap out of him. But he was definitely not more powerful than Suriel.

3a.) Zakariel is Judge Zero-zero-seven.

3b.) No, it's like a passkey that lets you walk in and out unharmed.

3c.) Maybe! That would be a spoiler.

High-IQ-Jokes

I recently re-read the Cradle series up until this point. It's one of my favorite ongoing fantasy series right now.

One thing that bothered me slightly on my first read-through and immensely on my second read-through is how the Heaven's Glory school in Sacred Valley were able to poison and kill a Sage. Will said himself that the Sword Sage was two levels above Underlord, and I can't imagine even an Underlord getting poisoned by them.

I wonder if it was just an issue of planning and Will not thinking that he would make the power levels so extreme in the future, but that point just always stuck me as bizarre.

Will Wight

Hey OP! I know it looks like power creep getting out of hand, but this actually isn't a mistake! Weirdly enough. Usually if I do something that looks like a mistake, it is in fact a mistake.

In this case, I know exactly what happened to the Sword Sage and how he was killed, but (back when I was writing Unsouled) I didn't realize how obviously out-of-place this would become to the reader in a couple of books. If I had, I would have made it clear in Book 1 that it should have been impossible for mere Jades to do this.

The reason why I didn't comment on it initially is because none of the POV characters know how weird it was. They just know that a Sage is a big, powerful guy from other lands, they don't know exactly how strong he is or what that means. Even Yerin isn't really sure how much stronger he is than they are, because she doesn't know enough about the sacred arts yet.

I wanted the reader to notice that they shouldn't have been able to kill the Sword Sage, but in a "Hmm, I wonder how they did that?" sort of way, not in a "Wait a second, this is physically impossible" sort of way. Even though under normal circumstances, it is literally impossible. I just didn't realize how quickly and how clearly people would pick up on that in the next couple of books.

So anyway, TL;DR - the mystery has an answer, it is an answer I have planned out from the very beginning, and that answer will be revealed in the series. Also, I regret not making it clear in the first book that this was an intentional mystery and not a mistake.

P.S. I'm probably going to include the Sword Sage's death scene in a Presence Report, just not in Underlord.

veronkilla

"Even Yerin isn't really sure how much stronger he is than they are, because she doesn't know enough about the sacred arts yet."

Seems she's quickly come round though, since she referred to Eithan as a 'mere underlord' compared to her Master in the very next book.

Will Wight

She can know the names of the ranks and which ones are higher without knowing what that means in practical terms.

She isn’t sure HOW MUCH stronger he is than they are, “they” in this case including Eithan. But she knows he’s stronger.

Questioner

Will those powers eventually affect Yerin or will she be able to access them as she advances?

Will Wight

Maybe, maybe not!

OrgnlDave

Ooh, would it be really mean to ask what your biggest regrets in the Cradle system are?       cough sword sage death cough

Will Wight

It’s not the Sword Sage’s death. My only regret regarding his death was not having Yerin in Book 2 clearly say “BOY THIS WAS SUPER WEIRD YOU GUYS,” just so people would know I didn’t make a mistake

OrgnlDave

I don't know, she doesn't really know what a Sage is capable of       even still       he doesn't seem like the type that would lecture a young girl on how his body works

Will Wight

Yeah, that’s why it wasn’t in there initially. But it confuses readers, which means I probably should have handled it differently.

Will.2

Will, the Sword Sage praised the chief of the Heaven Glory school(not sure the name is correct). Does this mean that he has a perfect jade body, or whatever it is called. Or did he simply mean that his foundation is better than the ones of the other elders?

Will

The Sword Sage didn't REALLY praise him, he just took it as praise.To a Sage, the Jades of Sacred Valley were like a bunch of blind monkeys swinging sticks around. He may have said "Nice swing," but he meant that in the context of a bunch of other blind monkeys.

Questioner

Elder Whisper vs. Li Markuth

Will Wight

Elder Whisper might be able to hide and run, if the terms of the battle allow such a thing. But Li Markuth very well might be able to catch him, and if he can, then Li Markuth wins it. He's a level above Whisper.

Questioner

Blackflame Emperor vs. Sword Sage

Will Wight

The BF Emperor is one stage lower than any Sage, and he knows that. If he were forced to do battle against a Sage, he would seek to die with honor and dignity, acquitting himself as well as possible.

TransEmo

I have to ask Will, does the sword sage have a name? I’ve been assuming it’s Tim until proved otherwise.

Will Wight

He does. It is Tim.

(Not to take us too far back on topic, but just to be clear: the Sword Sage does have a name, it will be used in the series, and it isn’t really Tim. Let your meme-y hopes die.)

It’s Timothy. He didn’t like nicknames.

Questioner

Wait, so Elder Whisper is a level above Underlord?!! That is CRAZY AWESOME!

Will Wight

No no, Whisper isn't THAT strong. He's several levels under Li Markuth, it's just that Markuth would be relying solely on the brute force of his spiritual senses to find Whisper, whereas Whisper has hundreds of years of experience as an illusionist for running and hiding.He is, however, by far the strongest active being in Sacred Valley.

Will.2

Will, the Sword Sage praised the chief of the Heaven Glory school(not sure the name is correct). Does this mean that he has a perfect jade body, or whatever it is called.Or did he simply mean that his foundation is better than the ones of the other elders?

Will

Curses. If I'd known you were going to ask this on two different threads, I've responded here instead of on the other one.

Bottom line: the Sword Sage didn't mean anything by it. He was being minimally polite to a bunch of primitive savages. "That's a very nice sharpened stick you have there; it's almost as good as my attack helicopter."

Questioner

Additionally, those colored rings of madra that Lindon sees around the sword sages remnant! Those just little cool visual effects? Extra soul spaces (will yerin find some presents as she advances?) Or are they indications he has more than one path!?!

Will Wight

They are little extra powers that the Sword Sage gained over his long career that he had stored in his soul. They became part of his spirit over time, and merged with his Remnant when he died.The only spoiler is the nature of what those powers were.

Questioner

Could any of our three musketeers beat Li Markuth in a fight?

Will Wight

Ahh... no. Because he is ascended beyond Cradle and learned some of that magic system, so therefore he is... as he descended back down to Cradle he was definitely... he's kind of beyond that. But the closest... Yerin could do it, Lindon's at the point (in Bloodline) where he could probably give him a run for his money as well, without anything he [Li Markuth] took beyond Cradle. So they're basically on a level with him, or somewhere close.

Bamfious (paraphrased)

Is there a benefit to doing Sage?

Will Wight (paraphrased)

There is a definite benefit to doing Sage.

Questioner

Would you rather be a herald or a sage?

Will Wight

Sage. You get to do more cool things. I want to be able to talk in bold text... it'd be amazing.

Kidpen

How did the Sword Sage plan to get Yerin to Lowgold in Sacred Valley without dying and giving her his remnant?

Will Wight

Spoilers, RAFO (read and find out)