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Elder Whisper vs. Li Markuth
Elder Whisper might be able to hide and run, if the terms of the battle allow such a thing. But Li Markuth very well might be able to catch him, and if he can, then Li Markuth wins it. He's a level above Whisper.
Li Markuth vs. Yerin's master and Eithan
Yerin's master and Eithan take it. In fact, Yerin's master might be able to do it without Eithan's help. Maybe. He and Li Markuth are on a similar level.
Could any of our three musketeers beat Li Markuth in a fight?
Ahh... no. Because he is ascended beyond Cradle and learned some of that magic system, so therefore he is... as he descended back down to Cradle he was definitely... he's kind of beyond that. But the closest... Yerin could do it, Lindon's at the point (in Bloodline) where he could probably give him a run for his money as well, without anything he [Li Markuth] took beyond Cradle. So they're basically on a level with him, or somewhere close.
Wait, so Elder Whisper is a level above Underlord?!! That is CRAZY AWESOME!
No no, Whisper isn't THAT strong. He's several levels under Li Markuth, it's just that Markuth would be relying solely on the brute force of his spiritual senses to find Whisper, whereas Whisper has hundreds of years of experience as an illusionist for running and hiding.He is, however, by far the strongest active being in Sacred Valley.
Underlords vs. Underlord+
The Sword Sage and Li Markuth are both roughly two stages above Underlord.
The three entities listed by Suriel as the top of the Cradle food chain are FIVE stages above Underlord, including one big leap (like the difference between Truegold and Underlord, it's only one stage, but it's a big one). The Dreadgods are a threat on THEIR level--and notice that Suriel said the 8-Man Empire, Sha Miara, and Northstrider could save Sacred Valley from them. She didn't say they could destroy the Dreadgods.
The BF Emperor is the one person in the Empire who is a level over Underlord.
The EE Emperor is about his level, although since they're using different magic systems, it's less about stages and more about what they can and can't do to counter one another.
Why did Li Markuth make it out of Cradle?
He did not make it to the top of the power scale and then ascend, but he did make it out.
So there must be other ways out of Cradle...
This is my favourite blog since 'Ancestors of Cradle'!! Fun reading!!!
How aboutGrom (The Archmage of Menzoberanzan) vs Elder Whisper
Ryu Hayabusa (from Ninja Gaiden 2) vs Yerin?
Goku (ignoring anything past the Main Buu Saga) vs Northstrider?
Is there anyone in the Cradle world (not the universe itself but the planet) that can take one Majin-Buu or Majin-Vegeta?
Evangeline Kitty McDowell (from UQ Holder) vs Luminous Queen Sha Maria?
Touta Konoe (UQ Holder) vs Yerin
Esdeath (Akame ga kill) vs Li Markuth
More to come later =(^-^)=
This thread has gotten so long! It's been awesome, but now I'm having trouble keeping track of it all!
1.) Grom vs. Elder Whisper
I'd like to give it to Whisper because of the flexibility of madra vs. Vancian magic, which relies on prepared and memorized spells and material components. That said, I'd think it would depend on where they fought. Elder Whisper relies on light aura, and Menzoberranzan is in the Underdark. There is some bioluminescence for decoration, but the dark elves primarily rely on infravision to see. No light aura, and Elder Whisper's powers are more limited. Plus, Grom can attack directly, which Elder Whisper essentially can't. Grom gets it.
2.) Ninja Gaiden 2 Ryu Hayabusa vs. Yerin
I have to say I didn't play 2; I played 1, and I played Dead or Alive, but not 2. So if the specifics of what I say are wrong, forgive me.
I'd think Yerin would get it because she's from a magic system with more magic. Everything she does is infused with madra--she's strengthened by madra, throwing blades of madra, using the power of an opponent's blades against them.
Ryu has powers of his own, as well as a great deal of training, but for the most part he's swinging regular steel weapons. Yerin beats him.
3.) SS3 Goku vs. Northstrider
This is roughly the level of power I'm looking at for Northstrider. When he powers up, the world shakes for miles around. That sort of thing.
(Not blowing up planets, but they could do that in the Saiyan Saga, so I'm just kind of pretending DBZ characters can't do that.)
I'd think Goku would win, because Northstrider can't teleport or use ki blasts (unless between now and my introduction of the character I decide to give him that ability). In a straight punch-out, they'd be comparable.
4.) Majin Buu or Majin Vegeta
Yes.
5.) Evangeline vs. Sha Miara
UQ Holder Evangeline rather than Negima Evangeline, huh? Not that in her particular case it matters much, that's just interesting.
Evangeline has to win because she's immortal and Sha Miara isn't. In terms of magical firepower, I'd give it to Sha Miara, but I don't know that Evangeline has ever gone 100% all-out. Still a similar level.
6.) Touta Konoe vs. Yerin
Same thing: Touta wins because he can't be killed. So he basically can't lose a death match.
I'm also not fully clear on what his powers are, but the White Light of Mars can presumably disperse Yerin's Striker and Ruler techniques (though not her Enforcer techniques, which I'd guess would work more similar to chi in the Negima universe). Even if you say that dying once disqualifies him, Touta probably wins.
7.) Esdeath vs. Li Markuth
Esdeath can freeze *time itself,* which is pretty OP, but I think Li Markuth still wins. He's superhuman and has access to a broader variety of techniques.
Okay guys these are the strongest characters1. Abidan Court2. Great Elders before they were sealed3.Strongest Cradle characters, including Li Markuth (not really Cradle universe), Ninecloud Court Princess, NorthStrider, Eithan, Yerins master4 .Sealed Great Elders and Emperor tie5. Urzia, Meia and other enhanced warroirs6. Ragnarus Incarnation7. Valinhall
That's just about right!
#3 is a broad variety of characters over several different power levels--the Ninecloud Court princess and Northstrider are a level beyond Li Markuth and the Sword Sage, who are both a level beyond Underlord. Some of those would defeat the Emperor and the sealed Great Elders easily, some would have a hard time, and some of them couldn't do it.
Also #5-7 are all very close. Valinhall can compete with the Champions, but they would be difficult fights. And while the Ragnarus Incarnation is the strongest Incarnation thus far, and thus a notch above Valinhall/the Champions, in the end (City of Light SPOILER ALERT, I guess) a Valinhall Traveler DID beat him.
But I'd still put him a notch above them in terms of pure power level.
What stage was Li Markuth at when he invaded Sacred Valley?
So in terms of advancement, he would be like a Sage, that would be the area he'd be at. But he was gone for a long time, so he also learned some of the magic beyond cradle, so he would therefore be more powerful than any sage in the world, which is why a long time ago when people asked me what level he was at, and I said Archlord, but I also said similar level to the Blackflame emperor... well the reason I did is because in an early draft, the Blackflame emperor was originally intended to be an Archlord. So that's what I was thinking, is Archlord, Sage and then Li Markuth. But I new even then that he was using magic beyond cradle, because he'd gone beyond cradle so I knew that was true, its not a retcon, I was aware of that, but its just hard to talk about things that are coming up without spoilers.
There's another thing that a lot of Cradle kinda looks like i'm making up the power levels as i go, and every once in a while i am...like i'll make up something, like there'll be something I didn't know the answer to, and I knew I'd need to figure out at some point but usually that's terminology or exact specific function, because i had the general idea of how all these ranks worked way back in Unsouled. I came up with most of this pretty early but i didn't know exactly the terms i was gonna use cos i didn't know how it'd work and what i liked and how it fit. It looks like i'm coming up with it as i go mainly because im trying not to overload the reader, I'malready overloading the reader with way too many terms they don't understand. The more ranks i throw at people earlier the more confusing that gets, so i try to not deal with it until it actually comes up in the plot, so as a result it feels like it just came out of nowhere like "wait a second now everybody know what an Underlord is", they're also moving to more advanced areas of the world where they do know what an Underlord is. But its really more about trying to control the release of information to the reader for the sake of confusion, and for the sake of what makes sense in the world.
Suriel mentions Li Markuth as Gold whereas we know he is greater than that and possibly an archlord so is this a mistake ?
That was me looking for an imperfect solution to a problem.I never intended Li Markuth to merely be Gold, which is why he says as much when he shows up, and of course Suriel knows exactly what his power level is. However, I didn’t want to throw new terms at the reader in book one, so I had her refer to him in the same way everyone else was.Of course, now it’s confusing. In hindsight, I should have said something like “The stronger practitioner’s core.”
So Li Markuth was on a different path? since he had something like Shadow and Storms i think?
Correct!
Though he also came from a Li clan so long ago as to be unrecognizable to the modern family.
So did lindon power degrade back to just being a sage by the time he ascends?
No.
I know I didn’t go into great detail, but he didn’t need to shed a bunch of power until he was weak enough to ascend. He had to wait until hunger aura had faded more in Cradle AND his power was better integrated into his body.
A regular Sage wouldn’t have been able to handle a bunch of Dreadgod weapons at once, body Li Markuth, and then face down a guy called the Devourer of Dimensions.
Interesting Contradictions in Lindon's FateWhen Suriel first examines Lindon's fate:
The boy fights against a relative of his, a young man with long black hair and an iron badge. The boy cheats, releases emerald hornets, ekes out a technical victory.
With a bulky brown pack on his back, he bends his head over a scroll, studying a Path by candlelight in someone else’s home.
And when she shows him his fate later:
The frozen world was wiped out, replaced with another. He was still standing on the stone of the arena stage, but the clouds Li Markuth summoned had never appeared, and the sun beat down out of a clear sky. Wei Jin Amon faced him, and though he resisted longer than anyone expected, he still lost.
That night, he nursed his wounds alone when the First Elder barged in without knocking. The old man slapped a book down on his table: Path of the White Fox.
This is intentional. She’s showing him something that is equally likely to occur as what she saw earlier.
The details change, but the broad strokes don’t.
So I know that what Li Markuth did was a violation of Fate, but would it also be a violation of fate if in some super high-tech world some scientists accidentally create a breach between iterations and wind up on Cradle or Amalgam? OR does it only count if it was your own personal power?
No, that would absolutely count. In fact, something like that is usually what happens.
Huh but then at what point does something become a violation of Fate?
Whenever it becomes a violation of Fate.
Seriously, you have to look and see where Fate is headed in order to know whether something is a violation or not.
There are some clear-cut infractions, like when ANYTHING from one world crosses over into another. That's two worlds that were never supposed to interact, and they're interacting.
But for the most part, it's very situational.
However, within a single world, you can't ACCIDENTALLY violate Fate. You have to be intentionally working against the forces of the rules, like trying to make yourself immortal, or tampering with time, etc.
Wait... if anything moving from one iteration to another is a violation, then how does one ascend from their world? Is that an exception to the rule since Sanctum has knowledge of the Way, the Abidan, and other iterations?
If everything goes to plan, we'll eventually get to see the ascension process firsthand! All those questions will be answered in time.
Been waiting for a new post to ask somethings
So finding out abidan archives was an info overload and I felt kinda like what dross must have felt on trying to integrate the Aurelius library. So I have a few questions/confusion.
1. Regarding Monarchs Will said that there are 8 active monarchs in cradle and at the end of underlord 7 live ones are mentioned Akura malice Seshethkunaaz, (dragon one) Sha miara Northstrider 8 man empire , counted as one, Emriss silent born ,The monarch remnant, Reigan shen , who apparently killed a monarch recently (possibly the Aurelius )
Now I am not counting the Aurelius monarch as he's been dead for a few years (~6) and Will said active monarchs.So the question is is there an unknown/hidden monarch?
Am I missing someone's name or is eithan the aurelius monarch and is hiding/repowered?
2. Of Markuth
I believed he was abidan level but he was confirmed to be sage at most, so I can get how he can travel off world maybe using portals or something like a Stargate but looking to fight the 4 dreadgods together or even one at a time when even monarchs cannot handle them alone seems unbelievable.Remember how malice was on the verge of retreating after 3 days and the blood Phoenix was still good to go but it retreated (maybe the influence of makael judge 001 ) wore off.
3. A few random musing
i. Who is judge 007 cause the reaper is 008.
ii. Is a ward key like a battery or an amplifier
iii.Do u have to die and be reborn(leaving ur remanent behind) to ascend/touch the way , this would explain the death of sage of endless sword.
This is a lot of questions, and these blog comments aren't a great medium for an in-depth discussion, but I'll do what I can.
1.) There are eight Monarch factions. Currently seven living/active Monarchs.
2.) He was an Archlord (or similar level) when he ascended from Cradle, but he has advanced beyond that in a different magic system after leaving. When he came back, he believed himself to be more powerful than anyone in the Iteration. Maybe he was, who knows? Maybe he was just prideful and Northstrider would have beaten the crap out of him. But he was definitely not more powerful than Suriel.
3a.) Zakariel is Judge Zero-zero-seven.
3b.) No, it's like a passkey that lets you walk in and out unharmed.
3c.) Maybe! That would be a spoiler.
What was the name of the Li clan's path, and what sort of madra do they use?
Ah.. I have the answer for that, I don't remember. I think they're a venom path because they use snakes. That sounds right. I don't remember I have to look that up, but I think so. I think it's venom.
Both the Underlady of the Jade Eye school and Li Min Redflower were separately said to have healed Eithan's shoulder in Skysworn. They were also both said to wear a dark veil at the meeting of the top 7 underlords with the emperor. Are they the same person?
They are. She's a blood member of the Redflower family but learned the Path of the Jade Eye school and came to lead it.
